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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
once more With Me George Galloway and me
gatri for me Saudi Arabia is the Heart
of Darkness I've been there of course
I've even had good relations with the
former King Abdullah but it's ever more
Sinister role in Iraq and Syria in Yemen
and Lebanon and its secret and steadily
deepening relationship with Netanyahu
all serve whatever anyone thinks of it
to keep the Saudis at the heart of all
the big stories Saudi Arabia is the
British State's best friend and a very
good customer too but all is not well
most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis
and the US Congress is closing in on
Saudi assets for what would be the
biggest compensation deal in history the
collapse in oil prices driven by the
Saudis themselves to harm Iran Russia
Russia and Venezuela has created crisis
for the Saudis themselves it may or may
not be a related fact that the regime is
cutting off people's heads like there
was no tomorrow and for the Royals there
might not be making sense of it father
Sputnik is Master analyst and writer
David Hurst editor of Middle East eye
David let's start if we may with the
most explosive of all Revelations I put
that quotation mark in because it is
denied by the Saudis and we don't yet
know the truth of it but the Panama
leaks seem to indicate that Saudi Royal
money $50 million of it was given to
Benjamin Netanyahu for his election
campaign in the last Israeli elections
if true I can't think of anything more
devastating to the uh reputation of
Saudi Arabia in the Muslim world is it
true I don't know uh but it is uh a
really big claim and it has to be
investigated it wouldn't surprise me if
it were true because we've been writing
stories I've been writing stories for
quite some time about the deepening
relationship between the Saudis and the
Israelis and the trouble with the
Israelis of course they boast of it um
and they say we've got the best
relations with the Arab meaning the
Saudis the emiratis the Egyptians than
they've had uh ever before uh and that's
what they mean and it's a security
relationship It's all under the table
it's all done uh there's a there's a
plane fueled up to go on benorian
Airport every day either to Cairo or Via
Jordan uh to to the Emirates and and
there's a constant security traffic
there's a it's intelligence traffic as
well now these aren't strong foundations
because it doesn't invol it's not a
People to People relationship it's a
government to government relationship
but I'm absolutely certain it's there no
of course uh political crises uh are
only one side of it having themselves
proactively driven down oil prices to uh
very low levels below $30 a battel uh
the Saudis are now themselves feeling
the pinch asking for loans imagine on
the international market cutting
subsidies raising taxes and just this
week uh they or the week before they
sacked their oil Minister what is the
current state of the Saudi economy they
have got a fiscal buffer which will last
them about 5 years it's
big um however what everyone is
concerned about is a rate of depletion
and basically they shed the they they
had a budget deficit uh they were their
reserves fell by about a hundred billion
uh last year if that keeps on going
they've got five years left and what are
they going to do about it well they've
got this grand plan
um and the sacking that you mentioned it
actually took place on Saturday was one
part of 51 Royal decrees all um
initially in the name of uh the father
uh uh Salman but actually written by the
son the 30-year-old son he's more or
less running the show Now isn't he he is
running the show um and there's quite a
lot of concern in Saudi Arabia and
outside of how much power is is actually
accured in his plant he's only the
deputy
uh Crown Prince there is a crown there
is a Crown Prince and we're not hearing
any he's someone else's son he's someone
else's son Ben na he's vastly more
experienced H initially when Salmon took
over from Abdullah uh the country was
divided into sort of two foms basically
it was the bin Salon the favored younger
son of Salon who would have the economic
basically portfolio and Ben who would
have the security Ben the security
portfolio now all we hear the only
person who talks about war in peace talk
talks about the war in Yemen uh the the
only person who talks about this Grand
Vision they've got Vision 2030 is this
30-year-old son and a lot of people are
asking questions hang on a moment uh
that's a lot for a 30-year-old just to
take on just wondering how this um burst
in the oil crisis prices have affected
the people in Saudia itself is it
already coming to their senses or are
they still living feel the pain they are
feeling the pain and and one of the
problems is that the whole point of
trying to reduce the budget deficit is
an oldfashioned privatization and
austerity campaign um and we know what
happens to austerity here in Britain and
in Europe and we know the trouble it
causes imagine the trouble and austerity
campaign would cause with such huge uh
differences in wealth and 30% of uh of
Youth being unemployed the Saudi youth
that's the real time bomb in it's the
demographic time bomb in Saudi Arabia
and these huge disparities of wealth so
one of the things that bin salon's
trying to do is cut the water subsidy
which is a big thing um and people are
complaining about it all over there's a
really interesting incident that
happened to the bin Laden uh
Construction Group which was sort of the
Builder of choice for the Ala sa family
for years and years and years it was the
biggest construction company in the
world uh a crane fell on the old mosque
in uh in Mecca um killing 100 uh people
more than 100 people the last Haj during
the last Haj yes um and there was a huge
political R about it all the executives
of the bin Laden Group were stopped from
going abroad and Bin and Bin Salman
looked at the accounts and he went
through all the accounts and he found um
$1 trillion worth of projects that
didn't have a contract to them and
immediately froze the whole lot the
result is that there was suddenly a huge
debt they couldn't basically pay their
wages for for 50,000 workers they
stopped paying the wages not only did
they stop paying the wages uh they
actually told them all to leave the
country so what the workers did they
burnt the buses outside the outside the
headquarters there's a big fuss there
stories in the media stories in our in
the Middle East eye and and and and
everywhere else about it and now uh
they've promised to pay about 10,000 of
them but this is the typical sort of of
the biggest Construction Company not
just in Saudi Arabia in the world world
is a typical boom to bus story no the
regime has uh has an extent uh you might
say structural problem with the Shiite
minority in the Eastern province in the
country they appear to be able to handle
that just by force of numbers Force of
Arms but if discontent were to spread
amongst the others amongst the Sunni
Bedrock of the regime that would be Curt
for them and uh there might be a jet
powering up in Riyad headed for uh for
Tel Aviv rather than the other way
around um How likely is that is there a
big enough split in the Royal Family
itself to see some kind of Pooch some
kind of coup as one possible response to
this well I think you got to choose your
words carefully here because there could
certainly be ructions I don't think
there's yet enough material for uh a
coup as you as you'd put it but it's
also got to be said that when Salmon
took over from Abdullah there was a sort
of Palace coup he chucked out all of the
advisers now that could happen again um
and certainly um uh Ben knife's position
could be under threat and certainly
there are uh big internal ructions
within the Royal Family itself now what
you're talking about is some sort of
insurrection uh popular Insurrection a
sort of Arab Spring in in in Saudi
Arabia and um uh I think they're worried
about it and I think there's certainly
the material there in in terms of youth
unemployment and a country that is is is
really living on borrowed time as far as
uh um Democratic uh uh Uprising is
concerned but who's to say when it's
going to happen no in the past the
regime could have counted on the
bottomless support of the United States
there are signs that that is changing uh
particularly if Trump were to become the
president ironically uh but the Congress
now is moving to hold Saudi Arabia
liable for the enormous loss of people
and property I mean it would be the
biggest uh compensation payout in
history as uh as gatri said in the
introduction the uh likelihood of that
passing and not being vetoed and so on
we could argue about but it's a sign
isn't it that the United States is
losing patience with the Saudi regime
yeah I think something fundamental has
happened with the United States and I
don't just think it's about Obama I
think it would affect the next president
as well there is a weariness about the
Middle
East entirely caused by their own
interventions of course uh no one's
innocent in this and there is a complete
poity of intellectual ideas or policy
what is Middle East policy it's setting
arms they're setting arms like no one's
business they're killing people like no
one's business in their drone uh program
these are not peace Nicks but what's the
policy and if you look at it from the
sort of um receiving end of this the
client end of this uh the Saudis say
Abdullah said to himself well if uh
Obama's prepared to let uh Mubarak go he
might be prepared to let me go and so so
so what's happened actually is the sort
of uh the American Security franchise as
such has has has has has gone has has
been inherited by the Saudis and they're
making their own policy that's one of
the causes of instability in the region
is that in fact uh Iran Saudi Arabia uh
turkey uh Qatar uh all of these Regional
players are now making their own policy
uh and sometimes it is mutually
contradictory so the the guys who are
fighting uh in in Yemen are not the same
guys that they're fighting in in
everyone switches sides all the time
Egypt um has given a lip service to uh
the military campaign of the Saudi and
the amirati military campaign in uh uh
in Yemen but it hasn't actually provided
any troops so so you you can see there's
complete chaos and this one intervention
hides another that that's what's so
worrying about it and I'm not saying we
should go back to sort of you know
American or British
colonial he
hegemony um but uh this is a much more
unstable Middle East and the Americans
don't have many ideas left no well you
and I have specialized in that region
for very many years and uh I suspect
even we would find uh a difficult uh
Road out of all this because as half an
Irishman I could say I wouldn't have
started from here if I was looking to
get out of it David har thanks for
joining us on the
Sputnik coming up next Gordon Brown
moments for David Cameron and the queen
don't miss it
back to Sputnik it was embarrassing
enough when David Cameron was caught on
tape describing Afghanistan and Nigeria
as fantastically corrupt even if it did
have the benefit of being the truth but
it was not the whole truth the Afghan
regime was put into Power by us and
billions in corruptly obtained looted
Nigerian wealth is Sheltering happily in
London even more embarrassing was the
queen herself captured ases her husband
the Duke of Edinburgh usually is on tape
being rude to Johnny Foreigner now that
was news her Target was China the most
populous most powerful biggest economy
in the world so who else should walk us
through here but China and Africa expert
Keith Bennett Keith let's start with
Africa briefly if we may Nigeria is and
has been always fantastically corrupt
but a most of the corrupt looted wealth
is here in London and B Nigeria finally
has a president who's cracking down on
corruption it was a pretty crude vulgar
thing for Cameron to say wasn't it I
would think so yes uh when you're
putting forward a flagship
anti-corruption conference as one of
your major International initiatives
it's probably not a very good idea to
insult two heads of state when you've
only managed to attract four of them to
come in the first place
uh Nigeria that so half of the heads of
state coming to the conference were
insulted in one quip by David Cameron uh
with Nigeria of course for for decades
we know that sections of the Nigerian
Elite have been uh bleeding billions and
billions out out of the country Accord
uh two years ago the economic Figures
were were recalculated and it was
discovered that Nigeria not South Africa
is Africa's largest economy and of
course it's a country that that sits
literally sits on oil and yet um people
queue in in Lagos or the capital Abuja
for hours and hours to to f fill their
cars with petrol so the fact that
there's huge corruption in Nigeria is
not an issue but president bukari the
current Head of State uh first of all he
was elected on an anti-corruption
platform secondly this is his second
term has head of state he he was a
military ruler at one time in the past
and and at that time he was noted
for you know what would be said to be a
very enthusiastic very Draconian uh
anti-corruption Crackdown so it's not
just words that the man has a track
record of of of fighting corruption and
it really seems uh gratuitous to to
insult him and of course this money
that's bled out of Nigeria it's not held
in Nigerian Banks it's not put through
the Nigerian Financial system as you say
it's where is it it's in the United
States the United Kingdom Switzerland
and these various uh Crown territories
and dependencies what we used to call uh
colonies and president bhari said that
when that corrupt money is um located it
is in his words very tedious costly and
timec consuming to get it back and he's
proposing an international
anti-corruption
architecture that when looted funds are
identified they should be returned
immediately and in full and I think Mr
Cameron would be better advised getting
behind president bhari efforts rather
than insulting him now uh Mr Cameron has
once or twice in his life uh apparently
been caught behaving injudiciously in
front of cameras but the queen uh I as
far as I know never has uh the
Revelation this week that she was
insulting China and the Chinese
leadership her guests recently in
Buckingham Palace came as a genuine
surprise to me uh proba means that she's
doing it all the time but it's never
captured on camera but it came as a
surprise I'm used to the dukee of
Edinburgh with all his racist uh jokes
and epithets and so on um she said they
were rude um it's never been my
experience that Chinese people are uh
rude what did she mean by that well
perhaps I'm not the person to ask what
she meant um you're the nearest to her
majesty that we could entice on to the
show right okay uh but I think it has to
be set in in in some kind of context and
and I'm sure that the um that the
Chinese are will do so first of all I
think that when you have a state visit
by and from any country the security and
protocol people from that country you
can expect to be pretty much focused on
the convenience the
needs uh the respect and and the
security of of the person that they're
working for I I don't think that that's
uh terribly unusual um so I can imagine
there there would be kind of tense
moments in in any of these kinds of
discussions but I think more broadly
it's you have to look at this in in the
context of history that uh in China they
talk about a hundred years of of Shame
and humiliation when China was a play
thing of of the um the imperialist
powers and the first president of China
Dr sanat Sen talked about China's
foreign policy being to unite in
solidarity and to unite in common
struggle with all countries that treat
us as equals and I think this question
of treating as equals uh is uh is very
is very important uh for the Chinese and
and if you put that Chinese sensitivity
about the need to be treated as equals
against some of the rather archaic
rituals that the British establishment
still surrounds itself with uh you might
recall that Michelle Obama was
excoriated in sections of the press
because she dared to put her arm around
the queen in the gesture of affection
you might recall that an Australian
labor prime minister I think it was Paul
keing was told off because he dared to
touch her majesty on the arm so I guess
the when you're used to that level of
deference yeah the concept of rudeness
might come across slightly differently
than it may to you or I who live in a
more Rough and Tumble world I believe it
was reported that the comments from the
queen were censored in China I don't
know to what extent that's true but I do
believe that there was a throwback that
the Chinese actually responded to to the
queen in their own ways I think the
Chinese are would be Keen not to give
too much publicity to the to this
comment uh in in China for for several
reasons one as I said they don't want
this kind of incident to unduly
interfere with what they hope to get out
of the bilateral relationship and what
people sometimes fail to realize is that
the Chinese government has to be very
sensitive to to public opinion and
public opinion in China is much more
sensitive on questions of of of foreign
slights and insults or the behavior of
countries with which China has some
historical grievance than the Chinese
government and the Chinese authorities
are themselves so you recall that uh d
chaing uh
gently chided the Queen's son Prince
Charles over the Hong Kong when Charles
ventured some advice to China as to how
things should be after the return of
Hong Kong to the motherland dcha ping
said the days when China took orders
from foreigners uh is long gone and this
squares with the point the overarching
point that you are uh making let me if I
may switch gear
uh the Panama leaks of course have been
enormously embarrassing damaging to all
kinds of people all kinds of countries
except the United States to date uh but
I have to tell you as a friend of China
myself they don't make Pleasant reading
uh Visa V China either there appear to
be a significant number of people with
close family relation to former leaders
of the Chinese Communist
party is this some kind of blip or does
it mean that China's own commitment to
cracking down on corruption and so on uh
is not quite what it seems
well I think that uh nobody denies that
that corruption has become a serious
problem in China and has been uh for a
long time time and the the successive
leaders of the Chinese Communist party
for over and and the Chinese government
for well over 20 years have actually
said that this is a life and death issue
for
them uh what's been different about the
present regime is that it has been uh it
is there there has been not only a lot
of talk but but a great a great deal of
action literally dozens if not hundreds
of ministry level officials in China
have have been toppled and and punished
for for for corruption some executed
even yes some people have been executed
for corruption uh not anybody with a
political background so far okay
um but that doesn't mean to say that uh
this problem which
one has been accumulating over a couple
of decades and two is quite deeply
rooted in in the sort traditional feudal
culture anyway is going to go away um o
overnight so as you uh review uh the
situation in China now with the economic
uh wobble which was of course inevitable
given the world international situation
you optimistic for China uh going
forward yes I'm fairly optimistic uh
that's not to say that there aren't
there aren't problems uh the point is of
course that there have always been
problems uh people in the west uh seem
to think that only they are capable of
identifying problems in China and if
there is a problem it's incapable of
solution actually the Chinese are
probably more ruthless and self-critical
about their problems and foreigners are
and they're determined to to solve them
uh just last week The Economist had a
16-page supplement on saying on China's
Banking and finance saying that a huge
uh bust uh was inevitable and I think
this would be worrying if it wasn't for
the fact that the economists published a
similar report back in 2002 which said
that China's leaders had run out of time
and options and the next uh and the next
decade China would enter into a period
of grave economic instability in fact
over that next decade of course the
Chinese economy grew uh by more than any
other economy in
history well that's a very positive and
optimistic note to end on GTH minute
thank you very much for joining us thank
you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gri well uh
about Saudi Arabia um and their relation
with us basically Raymond delone says
the medieval Saudi state has been the
architect of its own downfall the
unforced oil price Scots has backfired
massively well you know there's a great
Chinese saying that sometimes the the
enemy struggles mightily to lift a huge
Stone only to drop it on its own feet
very apt AK says because we need a
reason to help them with bombs missiles
and troops and in response to the
Queen's comments about China Ellen
Swanson says it's understandable she
found them rude I mean she lives with
the world's most polite men fa the Greek
absolutely perfect but that alas means
it's the end of my first show go back
but you can stay in touch with us
through the social media on Twitter at
rtor Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri
and from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
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